[00:00:01] Wendy: today. We are really excited to be talking to Leanne Sternbeck from Radha Handmade Organics and Naturals. Leanne lives in a most gorgeous part of the world, the beautiful Goomburra Valley, in the south of Queensland in her studio on her farm. She makes pure plant based organic and natural eco luxury face and body care products which sounds fantastic and I know they are actually have tried some myself so both her products and her garden a certified organic and we can't wait to hear more about what she does. So welcome Leanne and thank you so much for joining us today,
[00:00:39] Leanne: My pleasure to speak with you.
[00:00:42] Wendy: So I'm just going to kick off by asking what led you to live on a farm in the beautiful Goomburra Valley to start with. And also then to start making your own natural face and beauty products.
[00:00:55] Leanne: Well how I ended up in the Goomburra Valley, I used to co own a very popular and vegetarian restaurant in Byron Bay with my then husband. We then became happily unmarried and I decided to move closer to friends. And that led me to the Goomburra Valley. A very, very good friend of mine built a straw bale house up here and she along. I know she was very adventurous along with her Children who had grown up with my Children. Um and so it was kind of a natural move up here and was within about 200 km or so of a capital city, it was cheap, that was a big seller, it was cheap And we had friends here. So so I ended up moving here 18 years ago, which seems to have gone by so quickly 18 years ago and there was really nothing on my property much when I came here. So I lived in a bus, which was kind of fun. I still have that bus now, officially my certified organic drying room for my herbs and flowers, but it's the same bus and later had a house and studio moved here from Toowoomba. So it ended up living here and turned it into an organic farm. And you asked me why what led me to do that few things? I grew up in a farming family, orchards actually in the northwest of Sydney in the health district. And so I was very familiar with living on the land and farming and living like that. And the other thing was, I was really, really finding it difficult to get good quality organic or natural skincare. I have really sensitive dry skin and I was just reacting to everything and I got so tired of having cupboard full of expensive and I'm not so expensive products sitting there doing nothing that they promised to do. I started doing nothing. They promised to do nothing they promised to do and not even being made of what I think they said they were made of, which is still to stay a common problem. I hear from my customers. So it didn't end, I'm afraid it's still still a current problem. Um so I decided that I would give it a go. In the 1980s in Sydney. I had worked for a company with the exciting name of Scented Products who made and sold skincare products, not organic, but when I was working for them for quite some years, I learned everything about the business, everything, it was great, everything from formulating, packaging, advertising, selling all this sort of stuff. And I never really thought that I would need to know that in my own life later, but it came in very, very handy and I had been taught from a very early age by my grandmother to use herbs, the various things and to make soap, which was great. So he knew how to do quite a few things that I've done little courses over the years, just out of interest. And I've also been to Nature Care College in Sydney and had done a couple of years of herbal studies along with other things I don't like to be, I was used to be a remedial message therapist and I've done various different courses there. So when I got here and I was facing my problems with my skincare and I was living on the land with vast amount of, vast amount of area around me, perfect for growing things. I thought well it must have all meant to be because I actually did have a lot of background knowledge there that came together and led me to be able to do what they do, right? How I did it.
[00:04:42] Helen: That's an amazing story. Uh yeah, just it's amazing how it all just fitted together like a jigsaw.
[00:04:50] Leanne: It was really unusual when I look back over the last few decades before I moved here. I thought, oh, I know how to do this and I know how to do that as well. Oh gosh, yes, I know how to do that as well. I can do it. So I started, I gave it a go. I'd also done organic farming at Tafe in the mid nineties. And so it was a little daunting still, but I realized that I did have a lot of, I guess information they're stored away to draw on. And so I started back in 2007, I started making my first product. I didn't become certified organic until 2009. And the real reason for that was I was buying ingredients that were certified organic. I knew that I was making quality product and my customers were happy with them, but I didn't want to be lumped in with all the green washes in the beauty industry. When I say green washes, I mean all the people who say or use words like organic and natural and sustainable and ethical and all over their products with absolutely no proof that any of them are true. And the only way I could actually assure my customers that I simply wasn't lying to them and making the whole thing up was to become certified. So I did that in 2009 firstly as just a manufacturer. And then a little while later as a grower as well. But first I didn't grow very many of my own herbs and flowers. I just bought ingredients. But as time went by I decided that that was a better option. So I started doing that.
[00:06:30] Helen: Well. Yeah that was our that was wondering how did. So you started by buying, you started sourcing your ingredients by buying them in and then you began to grow them in your garden. Certified organic as well, isn't
[00:06:44] Leanne: it? Yes. Yes. So the reason I did that was I used to buy an ingredient from very good suppliers and pay very good money for them. But quite often I was really, really disappointed with the quality. I remember once I rang one of my suppliers after I'd received a particularly disappointing batch of dried herb that really seem to bear no resemblance to the plants that I knew so well, colour or form any any respect at all. And it looked like it had been swept up off the floor of several seasons ago in some packing shed. So I rang them and said can you tell me how old these herbs and they said no we can't, we don't know and it's no use are asking our overseas suppliers because they'll simply tell us whatever they think we want to hear and so that didn't really do a lot for my confidence in the ingredients I was buying because I really wanted to give people the very best quality product end product that I could possibly manufacture. And I decided at that point the only way to do that was to produce my own herbs and flowers, my own botanicals that I knew everything about from planting the seed right through to actually incorporating it into the recipes that I was using for the rising skincare product. So I did and it's been a real pleasure to do because I feel so much more confident that I know what I'm putting in there is good and I know that the effect for my customers skin is going to be the best that can be. So that's why I go to the extra effort and I can assure you it is a big extra so much easier to open a box that someone else has just sent you and then to start with digging the soil and making compost and doing the whole thing.
[00:08:35] Wendy: And the fact that they couldn't tell you how old it was indicates that it probably is quite old. I mean if you're putting old products into into lovely concoctions that you're making, I mean obviously you would think the fresher the better and you wonder if they have any any herbal properties whatever you might like to call them at all? If that old,
[00:09:00] Leanne: absolutely everything that's fresh is well best. Do you know that the bio actives in those products are going to be as high as they possibly can be. So all the good things common terms the good stuff in those herbs is going to be at its peak. It's not because things of course do degenerate with time just like you know with your produce protection bags that if you just stick things in the fridge over a few weeks the vitamin mineral profiles of vegetables really diminished and it's the same with herbs. So yeah I like to be able to do that. It's a real pleasure to know that I can give customers the very best that I can give them.
[00:09:38] Helen: How do you grow enough?
[00:09:41] Leanne: Um Well Luckily here in Southeast Queensland, although we do get some pretty harsh mornings in winter in terms of temperatures we certainly have recently, it was -3 here the other morning freezing all day afterwards. But generally most herbs that I grow actually originally from europe or north America and they grow pretty much through our winters. Not everything, but most will. And so I dry the herbs I can grow them most of the year, dry them and keep them as long as I dry them out of the sun. And I keep them in dark containers in air tight dark containers in copboards then that keeps them very fresh in terms of the bio active that are in them and they retain their color and their scent really well. Sometimes during the summer when I do have an abundance of herbs. I use them fresh but I often dry them myself and then use them like that.
[00:10:42] Wendy: So we were talking you were talking about the certified organic. Mhm. So can you just explain a little bit what that means in terms of not only your garden which you explained before but also your products. What's what does that actually mean? Certified Organic?
[00:10:59] Leanne: What does that mean? I know most people don't have a clue. No. And
[00:11:03] Wendy: why and why is it important to your customers I guess.
[00:11:05] Leanne: Yeah. Okay. What certified organic means? Okay. Is that any certified organic product has to have gone through a process of certification by a 3rd party to guarantee the integrity and purity of that product that things that are grown and things that are processed. In Australia there are I think seven certification companies that have been approved to certify by the Australian quarantine and inspection service. And they they make sure that anyone who applies the certification with them is compliant with the legislation. And what that means is that there are whole lots of lots and lots of rules and regulations we have to follow. I have to have incredibly strict bookkeeping practices that really enable = they call it a paper trail. But it's not any paper anymore. Is it a paper trail of any ingredient that comes to me can be traced back to my organic supplier. Who then can trace it back to the organic grower, who can then provide proof of where those seeds came from and how they were grown. So all my products are plant based and so they all do begin with seeds, somewhere in the world and that's how it works. So that means that there is an assurance there for anybody who likes to check that each and every ingredient that I make an organic claim about actually can be followed back to its origin like that. So it means I'm not not saying organic and having no proof of it, basically any ingredients that have been grown or harvested or processed have to be done so without the use of pesticides and synthetic chemicals to be eligible for organic certification. Things like they can't have used things like insecticides, fumigants, herbicides, fungicides and no GMO. So that applies to whatever I buy and also whatever I grow and you wouldn't believe the bookkeeping involved from keeping records for all this. But as I said, I do it, I don't do it because it's cheap. I don't do it because it's fun. And what I really do it for is to assure my customers that I'm not lying to them that what they're buying from me is what I tell them they're getting and I really think that's worth doing?
[00:13:30] Helen: Sorry, while we’re talking about your customers, have you found that the consumer demand for the has changed around skincare products, you know, from not minding so much about what's in the ingredient list to being plant based or
[00:13:46] Leanne: just enjoying their not not everybody cares, but a lot more people now care than used to. Perhaps I'm comparing it back to my days in the 80s and very early 90s with Scented Products and as long as it smelled pretty came in a nice bottle, nobody cares. Nobody seemed to kill them. Even if they pay for it, they didn't seem to care. And I'm not even sure in those days, honestly, if labelling all the ingredients was the law, I don't think it was. I think we even put all the ingredients on there as you now have to do. So due to a few reasons people have become more aware of what they're putting on their bodies and what you know, is in their products. They said not everybody is like that, but an increasing number of customers are and that's lovely. Which means that the people who are organic or even just doing natural products that they have a much larger customer base now. And of course that means it's good for the environment because things that are grown naturally organically are going to be better for the earth because you're not going to have all that sort of chemical inputs. Polluting the place. Of course it's better for the health of the consumer they put on their skin, not everything goes into your body obviously, but some of it does. And the chemicals that are on or in found on an ingredient list in non organic products. Quite scary. Once you start researching them, there's a group in America called the Environmental Working Group who have a fabulous website where you can go and look up any chemical that you may find on a label, you can search about and learn all about it. And if you do that a few times with some of the ingredients is uncommonly available products, you probably never want to use them again. Because a lot of it's very scary stuff in the beauty industry. There is no regulatory body overseeing anything. It's a self regulated industry still Yeah, scary. It's pretty much an unregulated industry. And so as long as you doesn't prove that what you've got in your product has actually killed anybody, but you can use it right? And they do, yeah, just go to the supermarket and start reading some of those label. Yes, I wouldn't want them on my body. And
[00:16:09] Wendy: that's the interesting thing when you were talking earlier about Certified Organic rather than just Organic. And I think a lot of people have probably got on the bandwagon recognizing that people are wanting organic or natural and all of those words that you said before and putting them on their product, It's a bit like low fat in food stuff, you don't have to actually prove that it is. But if you put low fat on the label, people not all people, but some people will buy it because of that, but it may have lower fat, but it's got a hugely higher sugar content for example. So
[00:16:45] Wendy: I think that that's a it's a marketing ploy to get people to buy those different products that have got Natural and organic listeners need to look out for. Is that certification certified
[00:16:57] Leanne: Organic because
[00:16:58] Wendy: it is a lot of work as you just explain. But it actually means a lot and whereas just organic, written on a label, can mean absolutely nothing. Is that correct?
[00:17:09] Leanne: It can, that's true. Some of the people who say organic or use the word organic in their business name may be doing the right thing, but for some mysterious reason choose not to be certified or we know of cases where they definitely aren't, but they continue to use the word because it this is a very strange little I guess glitch in the legal system here is that it is legal to call a product organic, but it is not a legal to say that it is a certified organic product, but I mean it's very subtle difference and the customers don't know the difference for most people as soon as they see that word organic, they just believe it is and educating people about the difference between organic and certified organic is actually really hard. But I noticed some people who, I guess you see more people now are beginning to be aware of it because I guess it's just become more mainstream to see certification logos on products in the supermarket and in health food stores. And to some people have more now have now more understanding of what it means. But generally speaking, I think most people don't actually know that and unfortunately, until it becomes enshrined in legislation that you cannot call your product organic and people will continue to do it time. Yeah, it's a difficult one. And I often talk to other Certified Organic processors is about the same thing. And it's just one of those things that have been, has been mentioned and brought up with government for many years and they just haven't changed it.
[00:18:51] Wendy: It is a tricky one because there's a lot of work involved in the certification process as you explained. And yeah, you should be able to I guess the premium should be there for those people who have gone to the effort.
[00:19:04] Leanne: Well, I think the people who use chemicals should be certified Certified chemical Normal Organic should be normal and laden with toxic synthetic chemicals should be certified. I think that they should have to improve that. What they're using is okay, isn't going to kill you as a toxic et cetera rather than the other way around where we don't use those things have to prove ourselves. So anyway, I'm glad I'm certified organic because I know that I can give that assurance to my customers and that's really what it's all about. And anyone who wants to have a look at my labels and go and trace trace my ingredients back through ringing my certification bodies and more than welcome. So yeah, it is worth it, but it isn't.
[00:19:47] Helen: So tell us a little bit more about your products and what goes into making such beautiful face and body care products. Because you know, I was just thinking if someone has just logged into the podcast halfway through or miss the beginning or something, they might think we're talking about growing certified organic vegetables. But we're actually talking about your beautiful range of skincare products.
[00:20:09] Leanne: Yeah, they could actually think okay with no ranges of skin care products, I strive to make a range of products simple range, not a large range of products that are suitable for people with even the most sensitive skin or who are prone to allergies, but for everybody really. And I use, like I said, only the best of ingredients which I can either grow myself or purchased from other people and in Australia we don't producing a lot of the essential oils for instance, most of them do come from overseas. There's a few ingredients that I can never buy from Australia, but I try as much as they can to buy from Australian certified organic farmers. Or grow them myself. When I make my product being certified organic means there's no substitution if an organic ingredient is unavailable due to some weather event knocking out a crop somewhere. But I just have to wait until its back in stock again before I can't just put a non organic one in there and carry on. So it doesn't mean that I have to produce small batches of things and be prepared for the fact that sometimes I just can't make everything. But that's okay. My customers generally pretty understanding about that and when I make everything, I never ever use water in products because No matter how much you refer to water as Aqua or I think you're seeing a label, a bit of superfluous Latin. There doesn't actually change anything. It is just water and can be like between 75-90% of a moisturizer. I never use water as a base in place of water. I either use plant hydrosols or fresh herbal infusion. So what that means in there is every ingredient in my product is there to do something positive for your skin, not just to be very cheap filler, what water actually is. So I don't do that. I am to have really intense concentration of active ingredients. So it means that every drop of that product is going to been possible experience about possible result that it can do. And so I create my products, all my ideas come up and I work on them, but I then consult with an experienced cosmetic chemist just to make sure that everything is as it should be and we can use the highest possible percentages of vital ingredients in there. So it gives people best skin care that I can give them and it's not such a cost effective strategy, I can assure you. But it does give very, very effective results to the customers skin, which is great. But as for making a profit, that's not my forte. I'm never going to make very much money out of this. But I do get a lot of pleasure out of making great skin care for people. And I've had customers who have been with me since 2007 thankfully a lot of them agree just really good. And yes, everything is made here on my off grid certified Organic Farm by me. So handmade by these hands and I don't do any outsourcing at all. I don't order in pre made basis, which is a very common thing in this industry. You can still get very nice products for doing that way. But I make everything from start to finish and every product does contain botanicals that were grown here on the farm in our certified organic gardens. We don't compromise on quality ever. Like I said, if I can't get the best of something for some reason be able to make that product for a little while. And that does happen sometimes. Unfortunately, yes, we really are soiled to skin can skincare range here.
[00:23:53] Helen: That's amazing. I can't think of another skincare range that could make that claim.
[00:24:00] Leanne: I know one, I know one of the one who is really ethical, but she really does do it, but I think they're very rare. It's someone just informed me on the weekend, but I'm part of the farm to face movement. I farm to face movement, which I've never heard of in my life before. Ah, don't think it has many members. Apparently we're a movement, but mostly in America Farm to face and yeah, it does conjur up some images of like something I didn't really like the term, but apparently I am so yeah, I think we're pretty rare because it does require, you will personally have a farm and I don't think that many people do who are producing skincare, but it's a nice concept. So I'm happy to be considered part of that
[00:24:51] Helen: and your products are beautiful. Um
[00:24:53] Leanne: thank you and happy with,
[00:24:57] Helen: I tried making my own years ago when I went into this whole foods kind of lifestyle and no synthetic ingredients in my self care and so on. Oh my God,
[00:25:08] Wendy: it was so
[00:25:09] Helen: difficult and the results were so terrible.
[00:25:13] Leanne: I'm sorry to hear that. Well you've
[00:25:17] Helen: got to have some experience and some know how to make good self care skin care products and I didn't have that and haven't gained it.
[00:25:26] Leanne: I understand what you're saying. And there are a lot of products out there that are made in a way that they just don't measure up in many people's estimation to compared to non organic or regular sort of high end product, but they don't have the same feel. They're a bit markets a lot, I think, you know what I mean, A glug, funny. A lot of these works
[00:25:52] Helen: a lot of beeswax or cocoa butter.
[00:25:54] Leanne: Yeah. Yes, I agree. Um so yeah, I tried to make my product very, I guess you have a very high end feel, very nice, very luxurious feel when people, oh, so when the idea I had was when people use them that they should feel better and before they use them, they should feel that to doing something for themselves to make themselves feel good and that their skin is going to result. The result is so that their skin is going to look wonderful too. It's going to be an optimum health. They're going to feel more peaceful. I’m counting those beautiful, beautiful sense from those essential oils in there. And so the whole combination of ingredients is going to work on the mind and the body again of the body. The mind to make yourself feel, to make people feel peaceful, calm, relax and centered when they use them. And as well as just really really helping the skin to be as healthy as it can be healthy. Skin is beautiful skin and calm and peaceful. Mind. Makes beautiful skin too.
[00:27:05] Wendy: Absolutely. How nicely said
[00:27:08] Leanne: and
[00:27:09] Wendy: they are lovely. I've I've purchased Leeanne's products so I can definitely say that they are lovely and Helen's tried them as well. They're really lovely. And so I do commend people to source where you sell your products and give them a try because they are really lovely and this is not a blatant add or anything. It's, it's a genuine endorsement of that. They are good products. So
[00:27:35] Leanne: thank you. I'm glad you've been happy with them.
[00:27:38] Wendy: Now, one last question I have is the name of your company is Radha. Is that Radha handmade organics and natural? Yes. Can you explain what
[00:27:53] Leanne: that means? It's not a word. People know that radha is the supreme goddess is described in all of vedic literatures of India as the supreme goddess. She is the embodiment of all Auspiciousness, beauty and feminine qualities. And so I thought that was a lovely name for a skin care company. In fact, I like the name so much my daughter's name also. I've always been really attracted to that name. So yeah, that's which
[00:28:23] Wendy: is lovely. Actually looked it up because I thought that's a really unusual name. It must mean something. So I actually did a bit of google searching and I thought aha now I know why you called
[00:28:33] Leanne: it that. So yeah, isn't she lovely?
[00:28:38] Wendy: So it's lovely. Yeah, really, really nice name and it means when you know the meaning you can understand it a lot more. Yeah.
[00:28:44] Leanne: Yeah. I do get asked a lot about that. People find it really interesting or attractive and they want to know more about. I'm happy to tell them.
[00:28:52] Wendy: Yeah. Which is great because it's a sort of name that's either initials or is it has a meaning? Yeah.
[00:28:57] Leanne: Yeah. It's just not a regular name.
[00:29:02] Helen: Where do we get to buy the products if you're not Wendy and Helen and already know.
[00:29:07] Leanne: Okay at the moment there are a couple ways you can do it. I have a very small presence online at I have a stall on a site, a shopping site called farmhouse direct. I'm on there is Radha organic. Also contact me either they email me or they direct message me on instagram for purchase inquiries like that in the pre covid days. I did a lot of very large markets, big event market and I could be found there but I can't honestly tell you when I can guarantee being found at another one because everything I've looked at so far going back to has been canceled for the last minute. I won't mention them because that using security at this point say that's how I do it.
[00:29:51] Wendy: It's difficult. And so you're on facebook and instagram is that correct?
[00:29:55] Leanne: I'm yeah, mostly on instagram you can contact me through facebook. No, I don't use facebook a lot and yet instagram or facebook and also what I'm going to be doing here is I'm going to be having people made welcome if they wish to visit to come and see my studio, visit the garden, see what we do, how we make that experience the products for themselves when they just have a relaxing time doing it, while sitting around and enjoying the surroundings
[00:30:25] Wendy: and it is a beautiful part of the world and it's a beautiful spot. It is lovely. So once you start doing that I would, yes, if you're a listener I would make sure that you head down to the lovely Goomburra Valley and visit Leanne.
[00:30:38] Leanne: That would be lovely. We'd be very happy to see you.
[00:30:41] Wendy: Well, thank you very much. It's been really, really interesting to hear your story and to hear what you do and a little bit more about the hows and whys of your handmade organic. So thank you very much for chatting with us
[00:30:53] Leanne: today. A pleasure chatting with you.
Natural beauty of course starts with natural ingredients, however water those natural ingredients down and a you get the status quo in cosmetic products! Not surprising when the big players in the market are driven by input prices and high quality botanical ingredients cause dramatic price increases. The result is products with a small amount of active ingredients that never have an impact at cellular level.
The niche that RADHA Handmade Organics and Naturals fills is luxury products without the luxury price. Leanne is literally bucking the trend in ingredients in cosmetics, she does not use water as a filler in her products (nor does The Kind Sunscreen - episode 23), does not include any synthetic ingredients or synthetic fragrances (artificial fragrances). She is crafting her products using exceptionally high quality raw ingredients that offer the highest amount of bio active goodness for radiant skin.
While the RADHA range is a small certified organic skin care line it focusses on maximum impact by delivering the highest quality botanical ingredients directly to the skin - truly natural skin care products that fosters naturally healthy skin. Leanne has crafted a range of products that are suitable for a range of skin types, even very sensitive skin, reactive skin and very dry skin conditions. Really, there is no need for your skin care routine to be complicated to achieve hydrated glowing skin.
If you like Leanne's concept of skincare having minimal fuss for maximum benefit by using the highest quality certified organic ingredients then you will want to know that you can find the RADHA Handmade Organics and Naturals range of skincare here. Healthy skin is always the best foundation for your beauty routine.
You can also find RADHA Handmade Organics and Naturals on Instagram.
If this episode inspires you to cleanse your beauty cabinet here are the three things you need to know to leave only the highest quality natural skin care products:
1. Organic skin care products and natural skincare products don't have to reach the standards of an organic certification body to say they are organic or natural. In this sense organic and natural mean the same thing and also doesn't necessary mean the exclusion of harmful chemicals. By choosing only certified organic skin care products you will be sure that your buying products of the highest standards.
RADHA Handmade Organics and Naturals meets all the Australian standards for being certified organic.
2. Water is a common filler and there are two reasons you don't want products that contain waters: first, water dilutes the active ingredients in the product and second, including water in the product means that the product will also require synthetic ingredients to stabilise make it last. Check the ingredient list for aqua or water.
"I never use water as a base in my products. In place of water I either use plant hydrosols or fresh herbal infusions. What that means is every ingredient in my product is there to do something positive for your skin, not just to be very cheap filler, which is what water actually is." Leanne Sternbeck
3. simple is better, if you can read the ingredient list and recognise the original source of the ingredient you can keep the product! If you can't find an ingredient list then it's a product you don't want to keep.
Place sugar into a small bowl. If you are using a combination of different types of sugar then stir well to combine.
Add the oil a tablespoon at a time stirring after each addition until a consistency a bit like wet sand is achieved. If the mixture becomes too runny, don’t worry, just add a little more sugar to thicken it.
Stir in your essential oils.
Spoon into a clean, dry jar and seal.
Store below 28 degrees Celsius out of sunlight.
To get the best results from your scrub use at the end of showering. Pat your skin dry a bit then apply the scrub in circular motions all over the body – excluding the face and neck, then rinse off with a warm shower.
Warning: This scrub may leave an oily residue on the floor of your shower. Take care not to slip. Always clean any oil from the shower floor after use.
Leanne Sternbeck the creator of RADHA Handmade Organics and Naturals is the only person we know who is growing certified organic ingredients to use in the hand made certified organic skincare products she makes. Leanne is literally taking all the values we have about organics and provenance and putting them her in a beautifully hand crafted range of skincare products.
"I make everything from start to finish and every product does contain botanicals that were grown here on the farm in our certified organic gardens. We don't compromise on quality ever." Leanne Sternbeck
Although we commonly like to know where our food comes from we don't generally consider it possible to know where our body care products come from and never that the raw ingredients could be grown the same person making the products!